Experience University Podcast

S6E6: Navigating Difficult Conversations

March 29, 2022 Season 6 Episode 6
Experience University Podcast
S6E6: Navigating Difficult Conversations
Show Notes Transcript

In this episode, I talk about navigating difficult conversations! This includes poor advice you can glean from the internet, why I think a lot of top 10 lists with this advice don't work, and my own tips and tricks for navigating difficult conversations with your employees, clients, or managers!

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Hello, hello my friends. It has been a little bit of a hot minute. I’ve actually told my intern that getting back to making sure that these podcasts are weekly is a top priority for me for the rest of their tenure as my intern. So, here's hoping we're gonna get back on our great schedule. Part of it is just the insaneness that is life. I'm sure every single person has felt it. Last week was actually our spring break - super looking forward to having a break. Of course, if you're traveling during your break, you always feel like you need a vacation from your vacation and that's exactly where I'm at right now in this moment. I need a vacation from my vacation last week. 

It's been an interesting couple weeks. My last podcast was one of my favorites, honestly all about the design thinking frameworks of the future, which is really, really fascinating. I love the whole concept. I love that project that I'm working on. Over the last two weeks, I've been able to randomly and accidentally, intentionally catch up with some students from the past. I have some really good close friends that were former students of mine that I stay in touch with and they stay in touch with me and I love that we can connect after a year or even two years like nothing's wrong, like, hey, fill me in on the high points of your life. And let's get into what made you think about me or what made me think about you. And that could be something related to work. It could be something about career planning or life planning, but I always love just having those conversations, because you get so close in the program. You get really tight through some of the courses that I teach, and it's sad when you see them go away. You truly are losing a friend. 

So, I had that one instance of okay, I got to catch up with three of my former students and really loving that, seeing impact, seeing growth. And then this week is the week after spring break. Motivation’s low all the way around. Nobody wants to come back. Everybody doesn't see that there's value in being back in the classroom, they're just done, they want summer to be here. I get it. So, this week has been filled with tough conversations with students. When I'm sitting here thinking about what do I talk about in the podcast, naturally, those conversations come front and center. 

I'm often asked to lead sessions or lead workshops on marketing, email marketing, and tons with communication, because of the storytelling approach that I have, but then also because of my acknowledgement of the target marker of the other person, as a human being sometimes that's all it takes is empathizing and acknowledging the other feelings. So, it has been really, really draining for me this week, having all these difficult conversations and evaluating who am I talking to? How are they already feeling? What did they have to share? And how can I approach this so that way, it's a win win. And maybe it's not a win win, maybe it's all lose, lose? Maybe there needs to be separation? Maybe people need to quit or drop or whatever that looks like, but how can we make this be less painful for everyone that's involved? 

So, in preparation for this podcast, I said okay, clearly I have my stories. And I have my examples, which is the value of me running this podcast, so I'm going to share those. But of course, I always want people to have tangible takeaways. So I started looking up having difficult conversations with employees, difficult conversations with clients, especially in a service-based industry, having those difficult conversations when everyone doesn't see eye to eye. And let me tell y'all the discrepancies and bad advice that I'm reading on website after website after website. I'm just kind of shocked.

There's some that don't acknowledge empathy at all. They don't acknowledge acknowledging the employee or clients or whomever you're talking to, acknowledging their feelings, even letting them talk. There's literally one website - I was so shocked. It essentially, it was like, conquer your own fears of the difficult conversation, do your homework, attack them with facts, leaving your emotions at the door. It literally said, leave your emotions at the door. Make sure you find the right setting and getting a witness. That sounds like I'm going to court. It sounds like literally, I have a lawyer and I'm removing all emotions from myself. I'm removing all emotions from them. We're going to be in a sterile place with a witness and I'm going to attack you with facts. Even in human resources now we are in a relationship management type culture. I just can't believe, and that is not an old article. It is a relatively new article. It doesn't matter what industry you're in. If there's difficult conversations that have to happen, that is not the whole story of what needs to happen. 

I think that one of the reasons why I've been decently successful in this area, and actually I asked my intern, what do you think I should talk about this week, this is kind of what I’m thinking about, they're like, oh, this is a really good topic for you to talk about. I think one of the reasons why is because I can acknowledge and understand a little bit what they're already feeling about this situation. So, I was talking, I had a couple difficult conversations today. I'm recording this right before going home for dinner. And I've had a couple difficult conversations and just sitting there and starting the conversation with what's going on. Tell me what's happening in your life. And oftentimes, people just break down right there. They just want to feel seen and feel heard. And feel like you care about them. Just like talk to me. I'm not here to yell at you. I'm here to make sure you're okay. I'm here to make sure that if you're not okay that we can figure it out, or if you're okay, but I'm not okay, like let's figure out how we can get synergistic again. And that's really the whole basis that I take is setting that foundation like where are you at? Let's build some trust. Let's have some positivity, lets have acknowledgement and validation of your feelings all really, really important things. 

And then of course, if I can acknowledge and see that they're already beating themselves up. Like I have one student who came in, already knew that they weren't really doing their work, was already beating themselves up, like didn't want to come in already crying. They were so upset. They felt like they were disappointing me and disappointing the team just like really, so much anxiety and hurt and just saying like, I don't need to make you feel bad. First of all, I would never do that. And second, that's not my job as a leader. It's not my job to make you feel bad. It's my job to acknowledge the situation and then figure out how we can work through it together. So, if you're already beating yourself up, I'm not going to beat that door down. And that's what some of the articles were saying is like, make sure that you have your facts, like you write things down, you are consistent throughout. Like yes, certain situations those elements are important to have. Just like in therapy, it's very important to have a record of your conversation. But how you start the conversation makes a world of difference. I can get into facts a little bit later on. Once I've eased anxiety, eased fear, and one of my conversations today was supposed to take 30 minutes it took almost an hour, but you have to get the other person into a space, and into a mindset and of course prepare yourself for that mindset of being open to having an open dialogue, that open conversation where you're willing to take constructive criticism, where you're willing to think in a different or you're willing to compromise depending on what that situation is. I feel like all of these websites that give you lists of like 13 ways managers can initiate conversations or difficult conversations with employees or how to deal with your unrealistic client, they're just lists…. right. They’re 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. And I feel like what a lot of these lists are missing is, I don't want to say correct order, but really in order of application for some of these principles that will naturally lead to success. 

It's not a surprise to some of you on the podcast, but I am a bit of a lifelong learning junkie. I love learning and I need accountability with learning. So I'm that person who's always taking classes just for fun. Even when I was doing my PhD and I'm killing myself and I'm like in my second year of my program, I was still taking sign language classes at the community college because I just love learning. I want to continue my learning. When I worked in my previous university, I had started taking MBA courses, because I wanted some more of that business background. And then when I came to UNL, I started taking improv classes and now I'm in a stand-up comedy class and I'm finishing up some of my MBA courses. 

And in one of my MBA courses, in the, couple terms ago, I was in a negotiations class. In the negotiations class it was really fun. We were paired up in groups, we were all given a specific role to play. We had to research it ahead of time, come up with our strategy, report on what our strategy will be, and then we actually got on a Zoom and we had to negotiate through Zoom. And then we had to report out what our results were. And then at the end of that week or at the end of that module, the teacher would take all of the different negotiation outcomes and then put it together into one document. Of saying, okay, you had to negotiate for the price of land this week. And here's what the minimum was across the groups and here's what the maximum was across the groups and here's what that middle point average was. So, see where you ended up in there. All that's fine, very quantitative. I get it. The really interesting thing to me was the feedback that I got from my group, just in how I started the conversations. It's more than just “being conversational” and more than just “listening”. Right? Because a lot of  negotiators go in and they're trying to listen, and really negotiations and difficult conversations are one in the same. You're trying to negotiate your way through a conversation to a common goal. 

When I'm trying to think about my situation that I'm trying to navigate, I'm trying to think of what is a positive objective? What is it? What is the minimum kind of viable objective, what do I want the outcome to be? What do I think they want the outcome to be if it's a client or maybe not an employee, employer type relationship? So, what are the objectives and outcomes of the conversation? And then really setting up the structure of that conversation to lead to that point. And I mentioned the things about continuing education because I'm actually learning a lot about that right now in stand-up comedy. Can you imagine? If you don't know me in person, he will especially if you do know me, a person is just really funny, I'm standing up on stage doing stand-up comedy. It's like I'm laughing at myself right now. It's really funny. 

Anyways, back to the topic at hand. In stand-up comedy, there's all these different types of comedy, and there’s short form comedy, there’s storytelling, there's observational comedy, there's all these different types. And they really dig in deep about how you set up those conversations to get to the outcome, which is the laugh. Or if it's more of a political type joke, or, or something that's trying to like broaden mindset, then your outcome might be that your listener gets curious about the topic at hand, but ultimately, it's comedy so you're trying to get a laugh, even if you're also looking for these subconscious messages. And there's a lot of attention paid to the structure of that, like what is the information that leads to the punch line? What's the transition? What are the tags onto the punch line? And I find it really fascinating, because it relates so directly to what we're talking about with difficult conversations. How do you start that conversation? How do you ease into it? And a lot of times with stand up comedians, you're also trying to build a stage presence and you're trying to build engagement and you're trying to build trust. And that trust, I know, trust is such a hot topic in the world right now, especially in corporations and organizations. That person on the other side of the table, they need to feel like you care about them. They need to trust you so that way, they can open up completely. They can let you see their vulnerable side. They know that you're going to take care of them even though it's a difficult conversation and it's not fake. 

So, Dr. K's big tips for difficult conversations, whether it's a client, whether it's an employee, whether it's your manager, whatever that looks like. First, if it's not a one-off meeting, like a one-time client meeting, I work really hard to set up a feedback culture. So I do this a lot in my classes. I do this a lot with my interns and other students that work for me. I really try to set up this feedback culture. I want students to know that they can feel comfortable coming to me about anything that's in their life or their classes or issues that they have with me or things that I can do better. And also the same vice versa, that it's a loop. It's a feedback loop and I can give them information as well. If you have that opportunity that really helps ease into kind of a more trusting situation, but if you don't have that opportunity, it's okay. 

When students come in or employees come in, or when clients or my extension professionals come in, I do meet with people in coffee shops, and I meet with people in my office but my office is not your typical office. I have a highboy with two bar stools, and it's…I tried to emulate that coffee environment. I want people to feel relaxed. I don't want there to be a big chunky desk between us and I want to really kind of set that environment that it is a conversation like we're here to talk to each other and figure out what we can do. 

And then I treat them as a human, obviously, but I'm really intentional about it. I always start with asking, how are you doing? And sometimes they'll be closed down and sometimes you have to be okay with the uncomfortable silence. Today I had a student and they were like I'm okay, I'm fine. I'm good. I'm good. And I was just looking at them. Just like staring and they were avoiding eye contact. And I was just waiting for them to talk and to share it. They just kept saying they were fine over and over again. I asked a couple probing questions. Like how's your family? How's your job? And then finally, you know, the tears came and you do get a little bit more vulnerable, but it's because you're showing genuine interest and care about the person that's across the table from you. And then one thing that sometimes people have a hard time with is coming from a positive place. I have a student right now who is struggling a lot in my course. And I had to sit down and say hey, you have to focus on yourself first, my course is just a course. This job is just a job. It is not worth your mental health. I am here looking out for you. Of course, I will miss you in my class. Of course, we will miss you. You are a strong presence in our class. But my class is not the end all be all. So, if you need to withdraw or take an incomplete, I need to support you in doing that. And you need to stop feeling like you're a burden to the class or a burden to your teammates because you're leaving. None of that is healthy. And if you can come at it from a positive place of hey, I am looking out for you. And these were things that I acknowledged that you're going through, that went from a difficult conversation of hey, you’re not doing your work, you're holding people up, you're not performing and you're gonna fail. None of which I said at all. And some of those are exaggerations. And that conversation then flipped to, hey, I'm looking out for you and your mental health and clearly you're struggling and I want to just relieve some of the stress and pressure and just let you know you're not disappointing me if you have to leave or drop. Everything is okay. You have to take care of yourself and that's a really great way to build some loyalty as well. 

Those are really the big ones. So, then you build that trust, you're having that conversation, and you're also acknowledging your own feelings. You are coming at it from an equal standing, equal footing instead of a manager or an employer or whatever position you're in. You're kind of removing some of those. It's kind of like if you have a kid and they're little. When you want to have a serious conversation with them, you get on your knees, or you lower yourself down so that way you are eye to eye because you don't want to look down at them and have them look up at you because that creates interesting power dynamics. So I just want to talk to my students and I want to talk to my employees and I want to talk to my clients on an equal footing. 

Now, of course difficult conversations with clients of setting reasonable expectations, especially with budgets or deliverables. It's the same general principles, except you have to emphasize that they can't just leave, I mean I guess they could, but they need to get the deliverables to you. So in situations like that, and that also happens with students or employees as well, you just sit there and say, Look, I know that we're behind. I acknowledge that it's been a struggle, motivation has been a struggle, health, COVID, the world, your family, everything's been a struggle, but this still needs to get done. It's essential to the project and you're spearheading it. How can I support you to be successful? Do you need an additional person to help you? Do you need clarification on your project? Can I adjust some of your workload so we can knock this out and then you can go back to that? That has been the most successful positive thing I could say in terms of managing clients or budgets like hey, this is really important and we need to get back on track. I acknowledge that we're off track. I'm not placing blame. I'm acknowledging difficult situations and difficult life and then I typically throw in a self-deprecating comment. Even I am having a lot of trouble doing this, because you want to show that you're also struggling. That you're not like the perfect person, the perfect leader, the perfect teacher, and everyone else is struggling. You want to show that you're also in that same boat, and that helps to build some of that trust and vulnerability as well. 

Wow. There's a lot to digest in this podcast. And I'm so thankful that this was a topic that was on my heart and that my intern was like you need to talk about that because the way you handle things, it’s like you can come in feeling really bad about yourself and crying and knowing you're not doing your work and you can leave feeling light and okay-ish and re-committed to doing the work and that's what the end goal is. So, with that, I’m gonna be quiet. And as always, I never take your time for granted. I'm so thankful you're here listening to the podcast, and I am so excited to be getting back on a normal weekly schedule. I have a huge announcement to make when we get to Episode 100. So, stay tuned. It's been in the works for a while, which is also why I’ve been a little bit off the podcast but a big announcement at episode 100. We're super excited about it. Thank you all so much for taking the time to make the time. I'll talk with you soon.